(Taken from a television program produced at the University of South Carolina about 1973)

Miss Day was introduced by Nancy Burge.

We are so glad to have Miss Nancy Jane Day who was the first state school library supervisor of South Carolina until she retired two years ago, to come and talk with us today about the development of school libraries. I am sure that she will not only talk about the development of school libraries in South Carolina but in the southeast and the nation because we cannot talk about one area without getting into others. Please feel free to ask questions any time and at the conclusion of her remarks we are going to do a little discussion about what she just said. Miss Day, welcome and the floor is yours.

Thank you. We have a tendency to think that our library program began when the state supervisor was employed, but actually we have had some people earlier who had thought of school libraries but certainly not in the terms that we think of school libraries today. They were thinking of libraries and their importance. I wanted to read to you a report or so, This statement is by Mr. O. B. Martin who was State Superintendent of Education in 1903. In his report for that year he called attention to the need for school libraries, As I say, his ideals were different from ours; "allow me to call your attention to the urgent need for libraries in our common schools. Many of our schools have well arranged working libraries, but hundreds of them have no provision whatever for the thousands of bright pupils who are hungry and thirsty for something more than what is fur-nished by the daily routine of text book work. It is scarcely necessary to argue the benefits of a school library. One has only to go into a schoolroom and hear pupils recite, or examine some sets of examination papers to find out by general intelligent and excellent expression the students who have access to good books and who have been readers. There is a vast amount of ignorance of current knowledge and information. Many homes are not provided with newspapers, magazines, nor any literature which will teach living history, and widen the horizons of the life of the bright boys and girls who emanate from them. It is my desire that we get at least a small library started in all of the schools in our state which have no provision, and I ask for your cooperation in this very important and far reaching work." Now that was in 1903, so you see we have had leaders along the way who have been interested in the school library. I am sure when he was thinking of a school library he was thinking of a small collection of books which we did find in some of our schools at that time.

Then later we have a quotation from Dr. Patterson Wardlaw, for whom the College of Education is named. In 1915, he felt the need for libraries, and said: "That depends on what you wish your school to be, are you willing for it to remain unequipped, lacking that most important piece of apparatus next to seats and black boards? Do you feel that it is worth no effort to make the lives of your children fuller and richer? Do you wish them to remain slaves to an environment little wider than the range of their five senses and the senses of their neighbors, if so, then. you do not want a library. If, on the other hand, you feel that your children should have as good a chance as any other, if you desire them to get that whole schooling of which the work of teacher and text books is only half, if you wish to sharpen their wits, increase their intellectual power and enoble their ideas by contact with the brightest, strongest, and the best minds of the world, if you would like to put within their reach one of the keenest, least expensive, most refining, and elevating means of pleasure. Finally, if you would see your school a source and center of quickening and light to the whole community, you cannot afford to wait another season for a school library."

So you see now all through the years there have been some people who were interested in our school library, but it was not until 1946 that we actually had a state program with a school library supervisor in charge. The work began on September, 1946, Mr. Hope was the State Superintendent of Education; but the people who really worked to get a state school library supervisor were the school librarians. Mrs. Frances Lander Spain particularly was involved in it; I think she was president of the School Library Association at that time. She was the president, and she wrote to evey board member, she wrote to the GEB, General Education Board, part of the Rockefeller Foundation, and asked them for support. The General Education Board had been providing school library supervisors for various states in the south and southeast, and South Carolina could have had one long before it did, if it had made the effort to support one; but we had not, so Mrs. Spain worked very hard to get the GEB to support one.

The supervisor of library services was paid by the General Education Board for the first year and a half, and her travel expense was paid by them also; at the end of that time the State Board of Education took it over. Until then we had had no one, and Mrs. Spain had worked with the Board, and had gotten their commitment to continue the program if we started it. One of the important things I think with the program is, the fact that once it was started we had a continuing program. Several of the states had them and then their supervisors resigned; so the program was dropped for a year and a half or two years until another was appointed. There were some real problems in some of the states because of this, but we did have a continuing program here. Mr. Fred McQuisten was the person with the GEB with whom we workgd at that time, and to whom I made the report after my first year of work.

Mr Hope, although he had not at the time worked very much to have a supervisor, was pleased when it came in at the time during his administration. I was a little naive when I came. I had been teaching at Emory and I got here in September; he had employed me in April, but I could not leave Emory until September because it was my time to teach in the summer school, and I had to teach the second term. Although, I did not really fall in the year then in which his last report was written, he asked me to write a little article in that report, because his last report would have been 45-46 and not 46-47, and I would have come in the 46-47 report you see, and a new superintendent was coming in. Re-ports didn't get written until that December in those years, and so he asked me if I would write a little note in it and so I did, and in that I just stated the purpose of the school library program and the purpose of having a school library supervisor. I also said we must remember that we were concerned in our libraries, of having not only the printed materials but having the audiovisual materials; so you see we began talking about audiovisual materials then. I don't know how early audiovisual materials were spoken of really, but we did begin talking about them then, and in every report we talked about the need for audiovisual materials and we finally got it in the state standards, the high school standards. We never did say anything about how they were supported, finally we said you must have some additional funds for the AV materials. All along we placed the AV materials in the libraries, this is the thing we advocate and so we never had the problems that a lot of the states have had with great division between AV and the printed materials. That is, we didn't have some of the ill will that has been fostered in some states between the two. We had always said that AV ought to be in the library, and most of the superintendents and Principals agreed, and even when we had AV supervisors they still worked with this material in the library after they saw how things were working. In general this is still true, our librarians are the people who know most about the AV materials in the schools today. I think you will find this, at least I know the last AV supervisor who came to the State Department of Education said that the people he had worked with were librarians.

Sometimes funny things can happen to you. I met with one group and we were discussing materials - this was a group of teachers. When we reported back to the main group, whoever was reporting for this group where we were discussing the library, stated that Miss Day said that we need not have any books in the library, we only needed AV materials. I thought then that I had talked too much about AV materials and not enough about printed materials. We did have our first report. I said I was naive and the reason I was very naive was be-cause when I came in September, South Carolina was having an election for a new superintendent; neither of the two people who were running had been employed me. I suppose being paid by the GEB was a help at that particular time for that first year and a half. Mr. Jesse T. Anderson did come in as State Super-intendent of Education; he certainly allowed me great freedom as I worked in trying to develop school library programs in the state. I thought that for the beginning of a school library program we had many things in our favor. One of the first things we had was the fact that when I came in the state, even before I came to the state, while I was still at Emory trying to teach and finish up some work, I got a letter from the president of the S. C. State PTA asking me if I would serve as reading and library services chairman. The reason I was invited was because at one time I had taught at Winthrop, and had known Mrs. Mary Frayser who did so much for public libraries in the state. She was working with the PTA. It was suggested that if there was to be a new state school library supervisor, perhaps that person should be appointed for the reading and library services chairman. Therefore, from the very beginning the supervisor had con-tact with all parts of the state, and for six years worked with the presidents of various associations, and met with various groups of the PTA. The PTA did a great deal in starting our school libraries. One of the things we had to keep telling PTA members was, that instead of always giving money, equipment, etc., they really should work to see that the school libraries were included in the budget for the schools, and to have the support come from the local boards of the schools, this was because as long as they gave gifts it would help, but after all this wouldn't build and maintain a library. The important thing was to reach the trustees and see that we got some local support for our school libraries; this was said over and over again, Also, in meeting with PTA groups, the opportunity was given for discussing what a school library did for children, for their children - this is the important thing. Not just that we needed so much money, but what did this library do? Then you begin to talk about your money you need for your books, your quarters, your personnel, and this sort of thing.

One of the other things that was in our favor was the fact that when the South Carolina Educational Association district meetings were being held in October, they asked the Supervisor of Library Services to attend. So this meant that in every district meeting all over the state the Library Supervisor had a chance to tell about the library program, the new program, and what was hoped for, and about libraries and so forth; so this was in favor of getting a program started. One of the things that helped a lot was the fact that the supervisor had taught at Winthrop and at Emory, and most of our trained people in the state had either been to Winthrop or Emory. Therefore you had contact with them and they immediately asked you to come out and help; they gave you contacts you would not have had otherwise.

Another think that was important was the fact that, when I first came to this department the supervisor's job was new. I was just here by myself. Every supervisor in the state department, and there were not many supervisors, were set off by themselves. There were sections for elementary and high school and physical education, and I was over here at the library with a lot of vocational people, but there weren't many supervisors in general education. When Mr.Anderson came in he reorganized the State Department of Education, and he placed all the people who were interested in General Education in the Division of Instruction; that was the best thing that could have happened to the position of library ser-vices. Then we met with and discussed with the elementary and high school super-visors, physical education, and the other supervisors as they were added. Then we added all of the subject fields such as social studies, English, sciences, math, etc. We were right there discussing with them all the common problems and you began to have an understanding of them, This really was the best thing I think that happened to help us in developing our school library program, being put in the Division of Instruction.

Years later when the chief state school officers were doing a study on the State Department of Education responsibilities for the school libraries, the study was made by their council. When we were writing up the report all of these representatives from state school offices were there, and their librarians. They didn't seem too friendly until we were discussing the position of the librarian and we said, we think the supervisor should be in Instruction, they said, "you do?", we said yes, they said, "I thought you just wanted to build an empire for yourselves." Like the audiovisual people did in that particular state, some did build up empires. I think this was in Ohio and in New York and those people were thinking that librarians wanted to build empires also. When they found that we felt that library supervisors should be in the instruction, we had an entirely dif-ferent attitude, and we had support all the way along after that. I think you should realize also that when the position of supervisor of library services was set up there were 1,680 school districts in South Carolina. Then we had almost more trustees than we had children, but that meant that we had a lot of small schools, and of course this was one problem when you started financing library programs, etc. Library programs in a way have been at a disadvantage, because you can always estimate what it is going to cost you; so many books and so much money, so much personnel, and so much in the way of housing, etc., so you do have a few problems there.

I think one of the first things I would like to talk about perhaps is getting into some of the standards just briefly, something about them. We had standards when I came to South Carolina, and they were based on Southern Association Standards. Southern Association set up standards I believe in 1934 for school libraries. In l937, standards were adopted in South Carolina, and Mr. John Kelly was high school supervisor at that time. Mr. Kelly was later re-gistrar at Winthrop. I talked to Mr. Kelly a lot about this, so when Mr. Nixon, who was the high school supervisor, came to Winthrop to talk to a group, he sent him over to talk to me. Later Mr. Nixon was one of our best friends; he was high school supervisor when I first went into the department, then later when he taught at the University of South Carolina I believe, Nancy (Burge), he called you in a great deal to discuss the library program with his admini-strative group, made up of principals and superintendents and this helped alot.

The next thing we need to realize is that a program is not built by person, it is built by working with groups, just like in the beginning we worked with groups such as PTA and AAUW; they helped us a great deal in getting across an understanding of libraries, and having a program of libraries and pushing for libraries, so every place you had a chance to touch and discuss libraries, those people helped to support libraries. Internally, in the State Department of Education, library programs would never have developed had it not been for the other supervisors in the subject fields, as they went out to talk to teachers in those fields and work with them. As the high school and elementary principals and supervisors were concerned with it, and as you met principals (you know a lot of the invitations for help came from the administration, superintendents and principals) asking you to come out, not just the librarians requesting and some-times it would be a group of teachers who had become interested in library work at various places, and would ask you to come and they would actually help set up libraries themselves. (The teachers set up a lot of the libraries in South Carolina). We always try to point out that there would be a lot of work involved, because if they didn't realize this they might start and quit, and there is no use to do that, but it took a lot of their time and we had workshops with teachers.

I remember up in Anderson, when they had their first elementary library, the teachers actually. did it. We held a workshop and brought people from all over the districts, etc., so its been groups working together. For instance the Supervisor of Library Services has worked on guides, i.e., a social study guide, and even after it was finished went around to talk, interpret it, to help explain what the social study guide was; worked on the health guide, and the last one we worked on was the reading guide for high schools. You worked with all these areas and in turn they helped you, and when you had workshops, they would lead discussion groups. One of the best workshops we ever had was under our Title III program. This is making me get a little bit ahead of my- self, but the subject area supervisors really helped us on that. We set up a workshop, the guidance supervisor led one discussion, the adult education person led another, the social studies person led another, and science another, and the math another. We had all these people coming in and leading our dis-cussions on the library, and its work, particularly if it would affect their fields. The point is they learned a lot and we learned a lot. You do have to know a school program if you are going to do anything in a school library, so as individuals we came to know that school program. You need to meet with teachers. I don't think we ever had much sympathy with the librarians who went off and did her cataloging, etc. instead of meeting when the teachers met, because you have to know what your problems are in the school library.

I started to say something about the standards and got off a little, but I think we are indebted to Southern Association for that. We have been indebted to Southern Association along the way as they have pushed their standards in high school, and it has caused South Carolina to raise ours a little bit. We have never had any strong standards in high school as we should have had at the state level. We still do not unless they have changed rapidly since I left there in 1970. It has been a slow push and pull, but Southern Association had led as far as high schools are concerned; they went up a notch when we went up a notch.

We never went up first. With the elementary standards, we led the Associ-ation in the beginning, because we set up standards higher than anything Southern Association had, so we really led them in that. Our elementary standards have been stronger than our high school standards, and when you look back over what the standards were in those days, and what they are today we haven't made much progress, I hate to say. We know, in checking standards you will find it working in schools, and working with other people, you don't always move as quickly as you would like to, and you move where you can when you can, and moving that way we never got very far with high school standards.

However, when the position of librarian was set up librarians with six hours training might be employed in schools with a hundred or fewer students, You might say that's such a few students, well we had a lot of schools that fell in that category. We had the next group with twelve hours, and the next with 18 hours, and the next with 24 for full-time librarians work. Just before the position of library supervisor was set up the Certification Teacher Education Department was reorganized, and new standards were set up; this office did not certify anybody for library work with less then twelve hours, so we said we don't certify for less than twelve so you can't have anybody with less than twelve hours. Then all schools had to have a person with at least twelve hours, that's the way we got up to twelve hours, we just did away with that six since we didn't certify except for twelve. Later on we moved that standards up to 18, so we said it's no use to certify for twelve cause they can't hold a job, you have 18 so at the present they do certify for part-time work for 18 hours and full-time work for 24 or above hours. There was great pressure brought at various times to reduce that 24, because most of the schools felt at the undergraduate level you should only offer 18 hours. I didn't Oppose that, I only opposed going backward, I wanted to go toward the Master's degree. We didn't offer a Master's degree in South Carolina, and politically you just don't require something you don't offer in the State, so you couldn't raise the 24 hours to a Master's degree. We couldn't get anywhere on that one, but I thought we shouldn't retreat to 18. A lot of people disagreed with me on that, but to the last I maintained it, and I hope it will eventually go the Master's degree since it is being offered here, but there is a lot of disagreement on that.

We received a great deal of support from Teacher Education. A lot of people have quarreled with teacher education, but we always got support from them. When the position was first set up, at Winthrop Library Training School, they offered 24 hours, there was a scattering of courses offered around, and the University of South Carolina did not have a library pro-gram. In the summer, U.S.C. offered courses in library science. Mr. Rawlinson who was the college librarian taught those at times, and Mrs. Edwina Salley, who was the librarian at Columbia College, taught these at times. I don't know that either one ever had school library experience, but they did teach those courses and they did a good job. I am not complaining about the job, I am just complaining that that's all we had. So when Mr. Donald S. Russell became President of U.S.C., he wrote to the State Depart-ment of Education and to other people asking them for ways in which the school of education could be improved. I received one of the letters, and Miss Mary Eva Hite who was in teacher education received one of the letters. I wrote saying that we thought we should have a program in the regular school term for the library science, and then the summer school program would grow out of that. We would never have a real program in library science until the University had it in the regular session. Miss Mary Eva Hite wrote the same thing, and gave us very good support on that. Eventually it came about that we were to have a library program at the University, so that was how this one began. Now we still needed to work with the Master's degree pro-gram so we started working toward the Master's program for our librarians. Our problem has always been in getting enough librarians in our schools; so that every year there have been people who were not certified. This has been one of our problems. You move in sort of a direction. We got to the place where librarians were required that schools get a new person for the next year with no training and encourage that person to start becoming certified.

In 1947 we had our first workshop, that was the summer following the date this position had been set up. We had money from the GEB (General Education Board) to carry this on, and the State Department of Education allowed the Supervisor of Library Services to go up and work for two weeks at Winthrop College. All the GEB money went for scholarships except for two people who came in as consultants to help us. Two of our school librarians came in to help. The next year we had one workshop at Winthrop and one at State College. In the early days we had separation of schools, so we had one for the white and one for the black, black being at State. I think we had really more workshops for the blacks than for the whites, because we had money, (the Rosenwald Fund) and the Southern Education Foundation gave money at various times. We also had Supervisors of Negro Education at that time and they were interested in the library. We had workshops for the teachers, for the librarians, and workshops for the principals, all of whom we worked with in getting libraries developed.

The librarians in the schools, even in the high schools, had study halls; I think you have heard of study halls, they may still have some for all I know. Although, this is one thing we improved in the standards; they now say librarians shall not conduct a study hall, an extra teacher has to be there if for some reason such as lack of space, the study hall has to be held in the library. The trouble used to be that there was no space and no teacher for it, and so the students were sent to the library, but now, if a study hall is held in the library there is supposed to be space for the people who need to use the library, and there has to be someone to look after the study hall. It did get in the standards, this is one place where we made some progress. For years the standards said the study hall may be in a library or in a special room, and it was a long time before we could get to say the study hall should not be held in the librar but should and shall not is a different time. However, we were able to improve the situation with the standards a little bit.* *(Editor's Note: The designated Minimum Program for South Carolina School Districts, states "a librarian shall not supervise a study ahll during a regular period of library services." (1977 ed., p. 36).

In the beginning it said 80% of your library materials must come from the list that had been made by the SCEA, State Department of Education or by the H. G. Wilson Co., etc. Who can tell whether 80% of materials come from any one thing? I can't go into the schools and say, that you've got 80% that come from this, so we changed this and said your materials must come from these approved sources. We finally got such "as" instead of "from these", "such as" is a difference you see, and includes other lists that were approved. This was a help. The librarians had percentages of materials that had to be in certain fields, so much for general works, so much for social studies, so much for languages, etc., all the way down the line, but they gave them percentages, like 10 to 12 percent, etc. Well we got that out. The argument used in getting it out was that a school library collection reflects the curriculum of the schools, and where your emphasis in the school is where your emphasis in your library should be, the curriculum emphasis should be the library emphasis. Also having things that young people like or are interested in should be included. At that time we had five books per secondary student in the library and do you know we just got six books per student in 1968. In fact, it was 1937 when the standards were set up, we had five books per student, a basic collection of no more volumes could be required than 5,000. We finally got the six books and must have a basic collection of 1,000, but you see how long it took us to get that. In materials we suffered more than in any other area, and I think that's because the superintendents were on the high school committee that made recommendations for changing standards. The superintendents knew how hard the money came by, I guess, so we just never got it. We just couldn't get that changed until recently. *(Editors note: The secondary standard for materials is still at six, with no more than 10,000 volumes required. However, the elementary standard is now at ten.)

Coming back to the librarian, she was counted against enrollment. Do you know what that means? (You know you get so many teachers for so many children, that's your enrollment.) Well this was our problem, and this was one reason for study halls, the librarian was counted against that, she wasn't given as an extra person, so if she got state aid, shewas on this enrollment group, although she got state aid for supposedly teaching so many children. Then if you took the librarian out of the group and put her over here in the library for free those children were divided among the other teachers, and it made it particularly difficult in getting staff for the elementary schools. The elementary schools already had so many children per teacher that it made it very difficult when we started working on enrollment, so this is the reason the librarian had study halls.

In the beginning the librarians thought they had to teach for a period to get state aid and that they couldn't do any more than two periods in the library. Well we got that straightened out, so they really didn't have to do that. Now principals at that time were also counted againstr the enrollment and they had to teach for a period if they got state aid, otherwise the district had to come up with the money, and the same was true with the librarians. This was a real problem on working to get enough librarians, but we finally got something worked out on that.

0n certification there was one other thing about the librarians. In 1945 teachers certification had undergone a review. Early requirements for librarians had stated that you had to have so many hours in administration, so many hours in book selection, so many hours in organization, and then you must have what they called practice work. We went along with that for a while until finally the school librarians and various ones that we called in upon - teachers of library science felt that we did not have to specify the number of hours. We said that you must have admini-stration and defined what it was, you must have book selection, reference and what have you. We first moved to do away with the practicum. We were told we were lowering standards when we did it, I don't know whether we were or not, but before that you almost had to get two majors with this 24 hours, and then to get in your practice work was difficult, so we felt and as we discussed it with other people that if the practicum were done in a teaching field we would be willing to accept it. That seemed strange that the supervisor was willing to accept it for librarians' practice work, but it seems that really what you want from this is an understanding of how teachers teach, and of how they use materials, isn't it? And understanding children. It seems that you will get back just as much as teaching this, as actually going out and doing the work. There weren't really enough places where we had good librarians under whom they could do good work. This meant of course, your routine in library science you had to learn elsewhere, you didn't learn it on the job. Anyway, the practicum was removed except in the subject area.

The next thing was when AV materials really began to come in and we wanted to do something about this area, we did go to Teacher Education again about whether we should accept something in AV or require something in AV. In talking it over, it was decided that we would get along better if it were under administration and under materials, book selection, reference, and organization. We mentioned that you must have AV materials even down to the production of materials if necessary. All of this was in the write- up, and if you look at that now you will see that it is included, so when you organized or cataloged, etc. you worked with AV materials as well as other areas. This was written in there. One reason was that when you made a change in a teachers education requirement you first have to get your committee and work this all out, then you go before the advisory committee on teachers education, and you have to prove to them that this is what you have to do. Then the advisory committee recommends to the State Superintendent of Education that this is what should be done or not done, and then it goes before the State Board, and the State Board decides it, well that's the long way around. We could change by changing what we said about scope without anybody except the office of certification having anything to do with it. This is why I say you move where you can when you can, if you can't get what you want just take what you can get.

I have always had a special feeling against Mr. Johnson the librarian at Stevens College, when I was interested in library work he visited us,re-presenting the Office of Education at that time, making a study of study halls and the libraries, and after he had visited all over the country he recommended that the study halls be kept in the libraries. He later became a librarian, and I hope he lives to regret his statement. You can't tell what will happen to you.

I did want to discuss something else on how you lose and gain on housing in particular. We got our space recommendations in the beginning for secondary with 10% of the enrollment to be seated in the library, then we got it up to 15% of the first 500 enrollment and 10% of the additional enrollment which I guess we still have. We went from 25 square feet per office of school house planning developed a guide on school house planning, and presented it to the State Board. The old high school standards were used, recommending only 25 square feet and we had to go back to 25 square feet. You see how you can so easily lose what you work for and try to get, so you do have to remember that if you are not on your toes every minute to know what's going on in every place something can just happen to you.

One of the first things that was done in our first year of our supervisory program was the making of the list of books. Those lists were never mandatory lists, they were merely suggested lists. However, when the supervisor wished to say suggested list of books, she was told you could not do that - that anything that came from the State Department of Education was official, so it came out as a list of books for high schools and a list of books for elementary schools. The only reason that those lists were begun was because of that 1,680 school districts, and there were such small schools so a small list of books was begun and the titles were classified. The feeling being that if they were classified at least the same subjects would come together when they were put to-gether up on the shelves, and that much was done. So many of the librarians were untrained and needed assistance. We did go of course eventually from the fact that librarians had to do their own classification and cataloging into buying cards and processing with our Federal money. In the beginning we felt that librarians could do that, and most of them kept an accession record. Later it was recommended that accession records be done away with. Many people disagreed with that, and high schools who had them kept them. We kept up with the lists all through-the years and finally did get away from doing them in 1969 by substituting a list of recommended sources of selection.

Another way of keeping in touch with the librarians was a newsletter, and this again shows you how to get help from people. Mr. Pat Smith who is the state auditor (Editor's Note: He has since retired.) was our fin-ance officer in the State Department of Education and he had at one time worked with the text book commission. He had an appreciation for libraries. I went to him and said that, it seemed to me, that since we had so many schools and it's hard to get around to all of them, that I would send out newsletters to the librarians. He said, "I don't see why you can't, we've got some money here and you can use that." so I started it and we have sent out newsletters since then every year. (Editor's Note: It was discontinued in 1977). As we added more supervisors, and all of them heard about the newsletter, and all of them wanted the newsletters, so we had gotten down to the place where we were having a hard time getting an OK on a newsletter toward the last. This was one of the best things that was done in touch with the librarians out in the state; it was a mimeographed newsletter, it had a lot of mistakes in it, and we often had no time to read it over and see what they were, and we even made the mistake one time of writing Governor Byrnes name Burns. Now I didn't write it that way, but I didn't catch it either because I didn't reread it. I never read the newsletter once it was typed, I didn't have time. We had mistakes in it, but at least it was no-thing anybody was supposed to keep, but interesting enough you went into schools sometimes and where did you find the newsletter? In the principal's office. He had taken it, and the librarian had never received it. One of the things I would like to mention in coming back to the elemen-tary schools for a minute, I said we hadn't gotten anywhere with our high school standards, only a very few steps it seems to me. I think that has been somewhat disappointing, although our high school libraries have developed a great deal. With the elementary schools, it has been somewhat different. In the beginning there wasn't much information on elementary schools, I don't mean just libraries, I mean information on elementary schools in the State Department of Education. When Mr. Castine,who has just retired as the principal at Bradley School (Richland I), was our elementary supervisor in the Department, he decided that we should, in talking it over with elementary people, that we should get out a questionnaire asking for information about our school libraries. This must have been about 1950.

We began asking questions about elementary schools, and we put in questions on the library even adding little questions like reference tools to the annual report form to see if they had encyclopedias, an atlas, and a diction-ary, and this sort of thing, precisely asking about those. So we began to get information as they sent out questionnaires. The high school had always - sent out questionnaires. You know if you really work with people you can get a lot of information on those questionnaires, additional information was sought, asking if they employed a librarian for ten months. There were no standards for this; you just asked the questions. A lot of them answered yes or no and began thinking about it. They hadn't done this but it sounded like a pretty good idea so they began employing them for ten months. We asked questions about an adequate collection of physical education books, just different questions you would put on there, but as we added more supervisors we had less room to ask questions.

I want to talk a little about workshops. This was another way of meeting and working with our librarians, and we always had a good response from them. We did all sorts of things. In the beginning we worked on special problems sometimes we brought librarians in and discussed the problem of student assistants, which I will take up. Sometimes we just met with them and they just brought up their own problems, and we discussed these with them. One time we had our district meetings around the state in which the librarians and the principals came in and we discussed the problems. We did a good job and they didn't get on each others toes too much; my job was to keep them friendly. We would bring up certain questions to get their reactions, not make them bring up the question, but that was very profitable. Also in one of the workshops we had with the black principals all the Department took part in it because it was discussing the elementary standards. Everybody discussed various parts of the standards and then we were open for discussion, and it was a very good discussion. To have a discussion with everybody around you and you are standing up in front, you don't always get questions, but we just said finally that we can't have anymore. But many of them were interested in library business. We were trying to make them familiar with what the standards were so that they would press for them. We found that because of the newsletters our librarians frequently knew about things be- fore the principals knew about them, because we did get the information out to them.

One of the best workshops we did was when the NDEA first came in, and the Department had added a supervisor for math, science and modern language, these were excellent people. Well I decided that we would need some sort of workshop and I talked to them about it and talked to the NDEA Title III Director about it, and we all worked on it. At that time we decided that we would invite Miss Francis Henne to come down. We decided what we would ask from each judicial district, one elementary librarian, one junior high school librarian, and one senior high school librarian to attend this meeting. We put them up at hotels and paid their expenses and kept them there for three days. On the first day they knew when they came they had to go back home and do something, this was their off. On the first day we had someone from the State Department of Education to talk about the program, school program, the curriculum, and the entire program. Then we had Miss Henne to talk about materials and selection of materials. NDEA Title III was concerned with materials in these fields. Then we divided the people into groups and they rotated a group meeting with the science person, the math person, and etc., until they had met with every single one, All of them met with the AV person, and the guidance person met with all of them as a whole. The three subject area supervisors met individually with them to tell them where in their program they saw the need for materials, and how materials were used and all this sort of thing. It was a good learning lesson for all of us who took part.

The last day they made plans for what they would do when they went back so that the three people in each district met and worked out their plans. This was followed up the following year by local programs which they had in some they emphasized math and asked the math supervisor, in some they asked for the modern language supervisor, and in some they asked for the library supervisor. They didn't all ask for the same thing, they just worked on the plans they felt that they needed in their particular area. It was one of the best workshops we had ever had, butit took money which we got through the Title III program. That's one of the benefits of the workshop. An important part of this workshop was that not only did the librarians come but the supervisors in the Department did, too, which was just as important.

There was a meeting in Nashville with Southern Association, working out a basic course for the teaching of library science, and so everybody went there and worked. The next was a workshop on workshops, they were just coming in that year, and we were going to hold some workshops. A workshop on work-shops as somebody said, they just got all the old moss backs there to scrape the moss off; but anyway we held them, and then that summer we held work-shops at Winthrop and State, etc., so that was a way in which a workshop was very profitable. Then when the new standards came out, the ALA stand-ards, we had a workshop up at Western Michigan for two weeks, where we dis-cussed these new standards and such and when the 60 standards came out we met with the U. S. Office of Education, and there we worked on those stand-ards when they were in the primitive form, just in a draft form.

Talking about the influence of the other groups, ALA had a great deal of influence on our schools, because we did use School Libraries Today and Tomorrow which Mrs. Douglas did. Mrs. Mary Peacock Douglas was an outstanding school librarian and a great pioneer in library science, and did a great deal for us. She had worked on these standards School Libraries Today and Tomorrow, and the ALA had published them as the ALA Standards. Now ALA Standards do not have any teeth in them, in that they have nothing to do with the accreditation; the state standards have teeth because they are geared to accreditation. Southern Association Standards have teeth, because they are accredidation standards. Also, a school doesn't have to be accredited by Southern Association, but it does have to be accredited by the state standards for the school to give a state diploma.

The trouble with the elementary standards was that they did not have to be applied at first. The ALA Standards led us in those early days, then when the 60 standards were published were the basis for our elementary standards and the reason why our elementary standards are so good although, ALA had not published them when we were working at the elementary level. I had the tentative draft cause it had been at the workshop, so we had used that draft as the base for working out our elementary standards. Now stand-ards weren't high in every respect and all that, but at least it raised our sights, and this is one of the things that was important to us. They have influenced us, and so many people, when the last standards came out said, "We will never meet them", I don't feel that way. I feel that the national level gives us visions that we need, and this is what you talk toward. You are meeting these standards down here that are not so high, not as high as we would like, the point is you are talking toward something else, this is what you do all the time, you move toward something else that you are trying to get. The ALA Standards certainly has helped us throught the years, then the American Association School Librarians took a stand also on AV materials. They finally got a statement that they could get passed (the opposition was in places where there were very strong AV people.) The library supervisors and the librarians felt they wanted to be on good terms with their AV people, but the AV people did not think we ought to go into it as librarians. They did come out with a statement which certainly helped in building up the AV in our libraries which are not school media services. One of the things South Carolina did not have to worry about in those new ALA media standards was the unified approach, because we already had the unified approach, that's our philosophy and it was sound. I think those standards serve for us and we all aim toward them. Don't aim toward your state standards or even Southern Association Standards; you ought to go beyond that.

I would like to say, that we had, I mentioned the council of chief state school officers, and the book which they brought out on Responsibilities of State Department of Education for School Libraries which was really a step forward when they did this, because this reached every state in the union. I would like to say that the Southern States Work Conference did a great deal for us and we did work out the publication Achieving Quality in Library Services. The Southern State Work Conference has done a great deal for improvement of schools in the Southern states, it is sponsored by the State Education Associations and the State Departments of Education, they take up educational problems and study them, each year they study about three. Then they bring people into Daytona Beach, where you stay (they used to stay when we worked on instruction materials, we were there for two weeks, but then they later have reduced it to one week, I believe, the last time I was there it was one week) and you sit and work.

People from all over the southern states came in there and you sit and work on your project, This is one reason I think the Southern States Work Conference and the fact that the Southeastern Library Association has always drawn people together, that people in the Southeast and the library field work better together than anywhere else. Many a time when you are working toward something you may have total disagreement but you can talk about it and argue and you can come out with something and that publication Achieving Quality came out from all of the southern states, the librarians, the principals, superintendents, and teachers working on it. This is not just something that the librarians did.